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Tim West's avatar

This is total rookie stuff. You are making basic mistakes long pointed out.

This is very poor

Jeff Green's avatar

Essentially, you're pointing out that when you take a sample—dismissed by virus deniers as a mere "crude toxic soup"—and dilute it to a point where any hypothetical toxins are too weak to have an effect, the virus still replicates and causes cytopathic effects (CPE)? This directly invalidates their core claim that CPE is caused by toxins from the culturing process. It's a powerful argument, and one they have never addressed.

Another core point people like Jamie Andrews get wrong (or deceptively distort), is that CPE is only applicable to viruses.

Cytotoxicity → Cell damage or death caused by toxins, chemicals, or other non-viral agents.

Cytopathic Effect (CPE) → Cell damage or structural changes caused specifically by a virus replicating in the cells.

Yet, individuals like Jamie and Lanka have claimed that their experiments demonstrate CPE in cells, even though no virus or viral replication was actually present—only apoptosis of cells from starvation. In such cases, what they are observing should not be labeled CPE, but rather cytotoxicity—a well-defined phenomenon distinct from viral-induced cytopathic effects. This is a distortion on their part.

When challenged, their typical response is to argue that John Enders, during his experiments, used the term “CPE” interchangeably for viruses and other cellular insults, yet this is a complete distortion of the facts. A review of foundational virology texts, such as Fields Virology and classic studies on viruses, clearly defines CPE as the structural changes in host cells directly caused by viral infection and replication, not by nonspecific toxins or experimental artifacts.

Moreover, a closer look at Jamie’s experiment reveals that he specifically chose enveloped viruses, most likely because their structures can easily resemble other cellular vesicles. Instead of using viruses with clearly identifiable structures, like adenoviruses, bacteriophages, etc., he selected ones that are difficult to distinguish from vesicles without nucleic acid testing. He then claimed cell starvation produced similar looking debris to those specific types of viruses. How convenient.

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